Bob Barr: NOT our friend

So the "convention wisdom" is that Barr hurts McCain more than Obama. I have always questioned this, the same way I have questioned and debunked the "conventional wisdom" myth that Perot hurt Bush more than Clinton, as the exit poll results show, as Perot was pro-choice pro-gay and anti-NAFTA.  If we look at the Libertarian party platform, sure, they are for lower taxes and tariffs , but they are also for legalized abortion, against the War in Iraq, against infringements on civil liberties, gay rights, and for legalized drugs. Now, some say he'll draw conservative votes. But if we look at them on those issues, Bob Barr is no conservative candidate. That is not to say they will get SOME conservative votes, but they are more likely to get votes that are NOT conservative. Bob Barr has now flip flopped and is AGAINST the war on drugs. being that the LP and Barr are emphasizing against the war in Iraq and for civil liberties, he may very well draw more votes from Obama. Those are their biggest issues, and are liberal ones. The rest of their platform is kind of liberal, socially. We cannot afford this. if this is a close election, this could be the difference. And if we win with a plurality, and Barr gets some, it will allow conservatives to diminish our mandate as they did to Clinton, and undermine his agenda. We cannot allow this. This is why I highly suggest NOT to help Bob Barr. He only helps McCain stay close. Conservatives who think McCain is a liberal are NOT going to flock to a candidate whose party platform is for legal abortion, gay rights, and for legalized drugs, and Barr is likely to go with the platform on most things. The LP platform will attract many young votes, some of whom may not call themselves liberal, but are more likely to vote for a guy like Obama than McCain.  



Display:


So far, Barr seems to draw votes from McCain (2.00 / 2)

Mainly the libertarians who normally vote Republican but are tired of Bush-style big government. The Ron Paul people seem to be getting behind him as well.

The Democratic base should be unified by the time of the election - with McCain's strident anti-woman record exposed and Senator Clinton campaigning for Obama. The same cannot be said for the Republicans - McCain couldn't pull more than 80% of the vote in most of the uncontested primaries, even last month. CQ reported that only 8% of Bush's biggest donors have donated to McCain (2.3% of those have donated to Obama or Clinton this cycle.)


John McCain
by MILiberal on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 06:36:55 PM EST

whose closer to Ron Paul on (none / 0)

Iraq and Civil liberties, their main issues? John McCain, or Barack Obama? The Republican label on Paul was just a label to his supporters. If he were not on the ballot, most of his voters would have abstained, or even voted for the Democrats.


by Lakrosse on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 06:43:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: whose closer to Ron Paul on (2.00 / 1)

I disagree with your assessment of Iraq and CL as the main Libertarian issues.  

I'd argue that their primary issue is always one of economics, tax cuts, and reductions in spending.  After Bush and McCain, a lot of Republicans will be tempted by a former Republican who would make cuts to the size of government.  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:25:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The libertarian nominee was anti-choice last (none / 0)

time too.


by bobdoleisevil on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (none / 0)

Nah, he will pull from the right, not the left.

He's amusing, but I don't seem him even as the factor Nader was.

Besides, if your loaded enough to vote for Barr instead of Obama, chances are, you forget to vote anyway?


Our long national nightmare is over...in 17 days!
by WashStateBlue on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 06:37:53 PM EST

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (none / 0)

Bob Barr is more a right wing nut than a libertarian he'll pull the rug out from under McCain.

Still you are right Barr is no friend of any Lefty.


by Skex on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 06:54:13 PM EST

no he won't (none / 0)

he is running on a drug legalization, pro abortion, pro gay rights, anti Iraq and pro civil liberties ticket. The does not hurt McCain. Those are liberal positions, which will hurt Obama more.


by Lakrosse on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 06:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no he won't (none / 0)

I would agree with that position, but being a libertarian I am sure Barr has a lot of "no/low taxes" and no regulations of business that will draw a lot of Fiscal cons/soc lib soft repubs as well.  

I would also think that many Repubs would be more likely to cast a protest vote b/c they see their party as being hijacked by neo-cons,  and i think these would go to both Obama and Barr.


by KLRinLA on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The dude wrote the Defense of Marriage Act. (none / 0)

He may have changed on drugs, but a surprising number of Republicans aren't thrilled at spending a lot of money on it.

I don't think the libertarian party is pro-choice, as neither this year nor 2004's nominee was pro-choice.

He's running on a Paultard platform only with more genuine conservative credentials and less gold standard craziness.


by bobdoleisevil on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

while he did, his party's stance on abortion is (none / 0)

"Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration." That is clearly a pro-choice stance. There are also more liberals against the war on drugs than conservatives. I am not saying all, but more. While he did write DOMA, seeing as he flipped on drugs, he will likely flip on gays.


by Lakrosse on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: no he won't (none / 0)

I think rather than being pro on all these issues, he just supports the states each deciding on the issues rather than the federal govt. and so he might appear to oppose the attempts to make rulings by the SC, and the efforts of Congress to federalize the issues across the board.  Supporting each state making their own regs regarding abortion, for instance, doesn't make him pro-abortion.


by Scotch on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (none / 0)

Legalizing drugs makes a lot of sense, it would be suicide for the Democrats to advocate it so i'm glad there's one party out there doing it.

If Nader draws votes away from one candidate, it will be Obama. Barr has the potential to take some away from Obama and McCain. So i agree we shouldn't help him.

Nader is running isn't he? Is he on the ballot in many states?


by liberalj on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:11:43 PM EST

Mckinney's the Green Party candidate (none / 0)

so Nader will have to go the petition route to get on ballots. I'm figuring he'll make it in 30 or so States.

Barr starts with well over 30 where the LP has established ballot lines, will end up in the high 40s.




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:07:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (none / 0)

barr is pro-life, isn't he?


by Monolithic on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:14:00 PM EST

his party is not, and I'd bet he flips on it (none / 0)

as his party platform says about abortion: "Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration." Barr just switched on the war on drugs, and I bet he WILL do it with abortion.


by Lakrosse on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:31:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No. (none / 0)




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:04:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

how about an actual POST (none / 0)

instead of just putting 2 letters and a period together?


by Lakrosse on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, he will not switch on abortion (none / 0)

beyond "leave it to States.'




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 12:24:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: his party is not, and I'd bet he flips on it (none / 0)

Barr has a paper trail, though.  His state rights stand and other similar issues are probably what would attract conservatives.  No, he doesn't follow the Libertarian beliefs exactly, but I would wager that really true conservatives are less interested in abortion than they are economic issues, and govt intrusion into their money.  The abortion people are the religious freaks, many of them, who took over the mainstream repub party, and drove the real conservatives out. With Ron Paul, I would also bet that his emphatic and rebellious methods of expressing himself probably attracts them as much as anything.  Obama isn't like that, but Barr is even calmer or more boring in some peoples minds than Obama is.  


by Scotch on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (none / 0)

I don't know. His Clinton nonsense should mean that Obama would pull the liberal libertarian vote. But lots of libertarians would never vote for Obama, they'd hold their nose to vote for McCain instead. That's where the money lies.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:22:27 PM EST

Libertarian voting trends (none / 0)

Traditionally, libertarians do not vote for Democrats.  There are many ideological dynamics in play, but it mostly comes down to trust and priorities.

Libertarians do not trust Democrats to stick to their ideals of social liberalism.  They see Democrats as the nanny-party, who seeks to stomp out any perspectives that aren't politically correct enough.  To support this view they point to things like Joe Lieberman and his chronic crusade against the video games industry.  Unfortunately, they don't seem to realize that Joe Lieberman is a total tool and not a real Democrat.

They also prioritize their ideological stances.  Their main priority is small government.  Not necessarily just as a taxation issue, but as an ideological issue--they favor weakening the Federal government as much as possible and leaving all the rest to the individual states.  Unfortunately, they don't recognize that the Republicans have become the party of big government; or rather, they didn't until very recently.

These are the sorts of issues that lead libertarian voters to be a pretty reliable Republican voting bloc.  They are the Ron Paul wing of the party.  They're not happy with McCain, but they'll vote for him, because it'll mean voting against a Democrat, and because he at least publicly espouses their most important issues as his own views.

If Barr is in, though, all bets are off.  They'll flock to him faster than gulls to a bag of french fries.  And the vast majority of votes will be peeled off of McCain, not Obama.

Yes, Ron Paul took a small segment of the young crowd and the Internet crowd; but that segment was always smaller than the Obama segment, and it was a cult of personality around Paul himself, not an ideological issue.  They are not going to gravitate towards Barr as some kind of spiritual successor to Paul.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 11:31:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (2.00 / 1)

Near as I can tell from the link you provided, Bob Barr decided the drug war was a failure based on a pair of supposedly steroid-related murders committed by a professional wrestler. As compelling as I'm sure this is going to be to...someone, that doesn't change that he remains known throughout the South for being (in his own words,) a "Wiccan mocking, Clinton impeaching Republican".

The people who vote Libertarian are the diehard anti-government types who are aware that the Republicans aren't so much opposed to government as they are to competently-run government. Other planks of the Libertarian Party platform you failed to mention includes abolishing the income tax, the complete repeal of all antitrust laws, an end to social security, and a belief that "free markets" will be responsible for all education, health care and environmental initiatives.

Exactly what votes from the left do you expect that platform to pull in?


by nathanp on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:29:07 PM EST

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (none / 0)

his calling the drug war a failure is called a fancy way to FLIP FLOP. He's doing it for his party platform. The people voting for Ron Paul largely are young people who are NOT voting on taxes. They are voting on the War, civil liberties, and the war on drugs. Paul supporters may go to Barr, on which he agrees with Paul. Barr is also NOT emphasizing his economic platform as much as he is emphasizing his social agenda on Iraq, civil liberties, and now drugs. So he will get votes from the left.


by Lakrosse on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (none / 0)

So the evidence supporting your theory that Barr will take votes from "the left" is that Barr will get votes from people who supported Ron Paul...

I think I detect a problem with that.

Now if only Democrats had a candidate that had shown an ability to attract young voters...


by nathanp on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

some young people liked Paul (none / 0)

and it was just a primary. A GE is different. people like you cannot seem to differentiate primaries and generals. Ron Paul voters are far more likely to go Obama as opposed to McCain, if Paul is not on the ballot. He won't be.


by Lakrosse on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 08:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excuse me? (none / 0)

What exactly are "people like me"?


by nathanp on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 08:09:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuse me? (1.50 / 2)

people who don't differentiate primaries and general elections. they are horses of different colors.


by Lakrosse on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 08:21:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (none / 0)

My fondest memories of Bob were him ranting about Impeaching the Big Dog, and thinking, "it really IS the fact they realize Bill has turned down more BJ's then they have ever even gotten close too...."

Bob is a troll, but kind of a funny sad one.


Our long national nightmare is over...in 17 days!
by WashStateBlue on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:30:57 PM EST

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (none / 0)

If he's good enough for Tom Delay's wife, then he's good enough for...  uh, whomever.


by Dumbo on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 07:48:05 PM EST

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (2.00 / 1)

If McCain were a conservative in the Ronald Reagan/George W. Bush mold I think you'd have a solid argument.  Since he's not (and that's just the pov of many conservatives) Bob Barr might draw many more Republicans away from McCain than you'd think (because they see Barr, a name they recognize, as a "true" conservative and McCain as a liberal sell-out).  Understand the argument you're making about social issues, but the fundie and anti-tax factions of the GOP have long had an uneasy alliance (and it's the second group, not the first, who might run to Barr).


by IncognitoErgoSum on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 08:27:29 PM EST

Bob Barr, Tammy Baldwin, and me (none / 0)

In the Fall of 2000, I was working to kill Censorship and "Secret Search Warrant" provisions of the Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act which had unanimously cleared the Senate, and was pending in the House Judiciary Committee.

I first persuaded my Rep, Tammy Baldwin, a Committee member to remove the Bill from the Consent Calendar, putting it on the non-expedited review track.

Next stops were the Libertarian and Firearms boards, where I pointed out that the Secret Search provisions would impact firearms as well as drug investigations, and the censorship provisions provided a structure which, under a future Democratic Congress, could be applied to restrict discussion of firearms.

A week later, Tammy was back in Madison, and asked "Ben, How did you get Bob Barr to call me?" It seems that thru the first 3 years of their service on the Judiciary Committee, he'd rebuffed all her efforts to engage him outside formal session, going so far as to turn his back when she'd try to approach him in the hallway, due to her sexual orientation.

The objectionable provisions were stripped, the bill passed without them. Baldwin and Barr became friends, joined in a not very successful rearguard effort to amend Patriot.




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:02:42 PM EST

Re: Bob Barr: NOT our friend (2.00 / 1)

Barr is not pro-choice and since he was in congress, people know this.  It will also come out in the GE that he introduced impeachment in congress against Bill Clinton.  Now, conservatives and repubs might love him for that, but democrats are not as impressed.  And for your indication that Bill clinton did not have a mandate, his terms in office were some of the best terms in office that I have lived through.  If it takes that little of a mandate to have a decade like the 90s then I am all for a plurality.  Beside the fact that Barr and the Libertarian party are not like Perot in the least, not even close.  Conservatives will be very attracted to Barr, he is their kind of guy and he has a track record to prove it.


by Scotch on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:22:06 PM EST

don't get me wrong, (none / 0)

I believed that Clinton had mandates, but the media didn't say he did, as they reminded everyone of his pluralities, and the GOP used this to their advantage. I KNOW he would have won without Perot in landslides, but even with, he still deserved to have mandates, but our media wouldn't let him. I mean I liked the '90's too, but if Clinton had gotten over 50 percent, perhaps getting legislation would have been far easier, the GOP talking point "he didn't get a majority" would have been dead, as that is what they used to block him. I know Barr is not pro choice YET, but he was never pro-legalization of drugs, except until now. He is lining himself up with the LP. I won't be surprised if he does this with abortion.  


by Lakrosse on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 09:26:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bob Barr v. Libertarians (none / 0)

There are really two forces at work here, married for convenience sake. Remember that many Libertarians opposed the Barr nomination because of his moralizing BS during the Clinton years.

Bob Barr is known throughout the South as the guy who roasted the Clintons. Many conservatives love him for that. My right-wing father-in-law proudly showed off an autograph picture of Barr to me.

Libertarians have a different agenda than Barr for the most part. But they agree on the Patriot Act, economic issues and the drug war. Instead of putting up some no-name, they put up a guy who could get real votes.

Barr will draw more from the right than the left. Count on it. Left-wing protest votes will go to Nader.


by elrod on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 10:46:10 PM EST

Thank you for your concern (none / 0)

You are a special special snowflake.

Have a gold sticker.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 11:18:40 PM EST


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