MyDD :: Obama: abortion query "above my pay grade"

by kosnomore on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:09:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um... (none / 0)

Indeed. What the fuck do you expect a politician or constitutional law scholar to say about the question of when life begins?

by username on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:12:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"it's a matter of individual conscience" (2.00 / 1)

or "it's not for any man to impose his beliefs on others"
or "we each must follow our conscience and trust our faith in god"
or "god judges man, man doesnt judge each other"
something like that woulda worked
Not, d'uh, above my pay grade - - that's how it came across. It's the story of the nite, and it's a gaffe.
Doesnt he have speech writers?

by kosnomore on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:18:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Really... (2.00 / 1)

...and you completely, utterly fail. Either it's a scientific matter, in which you look to biology for a definition of "life," or it's a religious one, in which case you look to your priest. If you look to your politician of choice (or his speechwriters?!) for a definition of when life begins, you've already lost.

by username on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really... (2.00 / 1)

If he can't answer such a critical question, as it relates to the abortion debate, should he really be making policy about it?

It's above his pay grade to answer the question but not to make policy that has a direct correlation to the question?

by Wiseprince on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:28:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really... (2.00 / 3)

Let's try this really slowly, so maybe you'll get it... Rick Warren asked:

AT WHAT POINT DOES A BABY GET HUMAN RIGHTS IN YOUR VIEW?

I'd rather my President not answer this question, as it's not political. Rather, it's either biological, atheistically moral, or theological. In any case, there's no way it can be his decision. Now do you understand?

by username on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:42:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really... (2.00 / 1)

If you want to be President talk to a theologian or a biologist. Fairly simple, now you can make policy based on science or theology, your choice. To suggest that Obama, as someone who wants to be the President, doesn't need to consider the facts of this question, and then suggest that he has the answers to the related policy question is foolish.

by Wiseprince on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really... (2.00 / 3)

The question of abortion has nothing to do with the definition of when life begins. "When life begins" is a philosophical and theological argument, not a political or even scientific one.

The question of abortion is whether a woman's right to control over her own body can or cannot outweigh the right--if any--that a fetus has to life.

Even assuming that a fetus, or even a two-day-old embryo, has a full human being's right to life, you can make an argument that the mother's right to control her body trumps that fetus's right to life.

You're picking the wrong battleground. If we fight on the battleground of "a fetus isn't really a person!" then we lose. Plain and simple, we lose. Because the people we need to try and bring to our side of the argument are starting from a definition of life that begins before birth. The battleground you must pick is, even if a fetus is in fact a person and has a right to life, we still cannot and should not outlaw or restrict abortion.

There's nothing wrong with the answer Obama gave to this question. I would have been seriously disappointed if he did give a yes or no answer.

Would "I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole" have been more acceptable to y'all than "above my pay grade"?

Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics

by BishopRook on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

10 Foot Pole or Above My Pay Grade? (none / 0)

Both answers are cliches.

A presidential candidate, dealing with what is a known controversial subject, should do better than that, unless the candidate is G. W. Bush.

by susie on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:45:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 10 Foot Pole or Above My Pay Grade? (none / 0)

Well, the cat is out of the bag now. Presidential candidates must avoid cliches like the plague! Even though sometimes using cliches makes things crystal clear, while avoiding them makes your meaning clear as mud. Usually it's six of one, half dozen of the other.

Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics

by BishopRook on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 09:52:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 10 Foot Pole or Above My Pay Grade? (none / 0)

A nonanswer.

by susie on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 10 Foot Pole or Above My Pay Grade? (none / 0)

Because it contained several cliches, and cliches cannot possibly have linguistic meaning, right? I see.

Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics

by BishopRook on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 03:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 10 Foot Pole or Above My Pay Grade? (none / 0)

Great.

by susie on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 03:53:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He was asked a question (none / 0)

he knew he'd be asked in a religious forum.
He should have had an intelligent answer that reflects his values without offending his audience ready to go.
"Above my pay grade" is an answer we've heard on occasion from President Dumbass over the last 8 years. Obama can and must do better.

by kosnomore on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was asked a question (none / 0)

Yet again, and slower so you may understand it, what response should your political leader give to a biological or moral question?

by username on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:43:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you dont want to answer religious questions (2.00 / 1)

DON'T GO TO A RELIGIOUS FORUM !!!!
But you can't go to a religious forum to discuss religious issues and then say "not my job!"

by kosnomore on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:19:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you dont want to answer religious questions (none / 0)

So dailykos is a religious forum?

by username on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:24:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BINGO! (2.00 / 1)

That's exactly the correct response from a Democrat... that it is not the job of the POTUS to legislate morality. That the US Government has to get out of the values judgment business.

Kosnomore... I agree with your argument 100%. Obama answer was horrible, flippant, insulting to a gravely important issue to me. I literally cringed. Sadly, I am not surprised... his answer at the other Faith Forum was equally weak. BUT...

McCain's answer was far worse. I'm trying to focus on that.

Good article in TIME about the ramifications of McCain's declaring that life begins at conception... for the whole range of Reproductive Freedoms. Devastating... and not at all overblown.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/ 0,8599,1833496,00.html?imw=Y

"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008

by twinmom on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama... watch, listen and learn (none / 0)

"Individuals must be trusted to make these profound decisions because the alternative would be such an intrusion of government authority that it would be very difficult to sustain in our kind of pluralistic and open society."

Why did Obama's debate coaches not help him craft a decent answer? Seriously?

"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008

by twinmom on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama... watch, listen and learn (2.00 / 0)

That wasn't the question he was asked. The question he was asked was, when does a fetus get human rights.

How should he have answered that question?

Any answer you give to that question is the wrong answer, unless it's "I don't know." Because any strict answer, either the moment of conception, the moment of birth, or some vague point of "viability" in between, is totally subjective and arbitrary.

In not answering the question, Obama gave the only acceptable answer to it.

Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics

by BishopRook on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:49:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But (none / 0)

You could argue that "any strict answer is totally subjective and arbitrary" on virtually ANY subject which might come before the POTUS.

Take economic issues... there also exists a WIDE range of opinions and a vigorous debate on the benefits and pitfalls of various approaches. Would it be acceptable for Obama to claim that discussing economic issues was "above my pay grade" because he is not an economist? NO!

The REASON why issues of morality and values are different from say economics is exactly what Obama should be addressing in his answer. His answer should speak directly to how inappropriate and impossible (and potentially harmful) it is to legislate morality in a diverse society which is founded on a notion of freedom of (and from!) religion and separation of church and state. That's what Hillary Clinton's answer so beautifully did in my opinion.

"Life is too short, time is too precious, and the stakes are too high to dwell on what might have been." Hillary Rodham Clinton - June 7, 2008

by twinmom on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:14:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But (none / 0)

What does Hillary have to do with this? I'm sorry but she lost, bringing her up over and over again isn't going to change that fact.

by venician on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:39:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But (2.00 / 1)

It's funny that there are people on both the extreme Obama side and the extreme Clinton side that feel the need to bring Hillary into everything.

by Cincinnatus on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:25:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But (none / 0)

There's a difference between competing economic theories and competing definitions for when life begins.

Economic theories can be argued. Evidence can be presented for and against them. Definitions for when life begins cannot. There's no argument there--it's a matter of totally subjective definition. If someone believes that life begins at conception, there is absolutely 100% nothing you or I can do to dissuade them of that. What evidence could we give?

We can't base our argument for choice on life beginning at birth, because the only people who will respond to that argument are people who already agree with us, and because we'd exclude a large number of people who believe life begins before birth but are also pro-choice.

Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics

by BishopRook on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 09:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

get out of the values judgment business? (none / 0)

What a ridiculous suggestion. Whether to go to war or not is a value judgment. What the marginal tax rate should be is a value judgment. The president's job requires constant making of value judgments.

by JJE on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: BINGO! (none / 0)

that it is not the job of the POTUS to legislate morality.

Um... that's kind of what he was saying, Ms. mom...

by username on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 03:49:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Um... (none / 0)

Well, he could say what the rabbi said in the old joke, "I thought life began when the kids leave home and the dog dies?"

"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout

by LIsoundview on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's a great answer (2.00 / 1)

and if you get it, it is a very subtle jab at a minister who is making oddles of cash selling the baby killing meme. See.

overthrow the government~participate

by missliberties on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

dumb comment agreed. (2.00 / 3)

but kosnomore - care to explain why your diaries consistently question or bash democrats? i am of course thinking of the many edwards bashing diaries written as of late...

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" -- Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:09:01 PM EST

Because there's enough cheerleaders. (2.00 / 1)

You need critique from people on the same side.
And, yes, Edwards deserves every slam he's gotten for keeping the story alive by still not telling the whole truth, so it comes out in bits and pieces after we've rebuilt the image of our brand as the moral party. Fuck him for what he did to Elizabeth - - with that remission bullshit excuse - - the stress of the past week probably took months off her life.

by kosnomore on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Because there's enough cheerleaders. (none / 0)

To be honest, his affair was and is none of our fucking business. His affair is between him, his family and his mistress. Honestly, I cannot believe that we care so much that someone did something that thousands of other men in this country do EVERY DAY with no adverse consequences outside of their family.

by shalca on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 03:53:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by zerosumgame on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:36:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

because blind obedience is a repuke trait and indicates a weak mind? If you can't handle it then perhaps you should go to some echo chamber so you only have to listen to the sound of your own voice. dkos is good for that.

Re: dumb comment agreed. (1.50 / 2)

A rude, kneejerk response to an honest question from a respected community member.

by Cincinnatus on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:45:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics

An ironic one when replying to canadian gal, who is certainly not MyDD's leading Obamabot.

by BishopRook on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:51:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

by Cincinnatus on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 02:33:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And some ratings abuse by his sockpuppet thrown in for good measure.

You're making a mistake by treating kosnomore as anything other than an object of mockery.

by username on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 03:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And the American people (none / 0)

are supposed to give him a raise why?

by Wiseprince on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:14:52 PM EST

And THAT'S the snarky response (none / 0)

a stupid flippant answer elicits in the audience's mind.
Thank God he didn't agree to weekly debates!

by kosnomore on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And THAT'S the snarky response (none / 0)

Thank God most people realize you're a self-parody.

by username on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 03:53:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Your concerns are noted (2.00 / 1)

by libertyleft on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:19:29 PM EST

No a concern - - - (2.00 / 1)

a harsh criticism for a crappy job at the first side by side event.
Think about it - - a doddering old fool BEAT HIM at the Warren event, where the moderator leaned his way. Yikes!

by kosnomore on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

your concerns are noted (none / 0)

by libertyleft on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're so setting yourself up - - (none / 0)

and in a month or two you'll be looking for scapegoats.
Wouldn't you rather get them to get their act together today?

by kosnomore on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:38:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

your concern for me is noted (none / 0)

by libertyleft on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:25:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No a concern - - - (2.00 / 1)

McCain didn't beat him, McCain cheated (the No-cone of Silence)

by Roberta on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:28:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No a concern - - - (none / 0)

as long as that remains below the radar of 80% of voters then it worked in McLames favor.

by zerosumgame on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:37:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: abortion query (none / 0)

I, for one, do not want the President personally regulating the definition of life.

by davisb on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:19:44 PM EST

And that's how you say it - - (2.00 / 1)

say it's not the president's job to define life - - but don't be flippant on the subject in front of a room (and national evangelical audience) of folks deeply concerned over life issues.
"Above my pay grade" is an answer BUSH has given. Is it now clever when Obama says it?

by kosnomore on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:25:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And that's how you say it - - (none / 0)

I had no problem with the phrase when either politician said it.

I do think it doesn't make any sense to argue that "NOTHING" is above the pay grade of President of the United States.

by davisb on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

he wasn't asked to define life (2.00 / 1)

he was asked when a fetus gets human rights, which is not the same thing. Presidents, of course, have to make all kinds of decisions about human rights. The problem is that the pro-choice position on this question ranges from "at birth" to "some arbitrary point during gestation", and requires a balancing of whatever those rights are against the woman's right to bodily autonomy.

by JJE on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:16:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And that's how you say it - - (none / 0)

That's what he did, kosnomore. He said it's not the President's job to define when life begins. He just didn't do it in the words you wanted him to do it in.

Do you really have such a low opinion of the American people that you think they can't comprehend the English language at above a third-grade level, or what?

Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics

by BishopRook on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:55:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And that's how you say it - - (none / 0)

That's more or less kosnomore's level of comprehension, so... yes.

by username on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 03:54:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: abortion query (none / 0)

Nor "kosnomore" treated as a serious participant in political dialogue.

by username on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:27:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: abortion query "above " (none / 0)

I don't see anything wrong with that phrase. What Obama was saying is that God is the one that has that answer. Old man McBush must think he is god. Oh yes he was a POW so that makes him god. I mean anytime that old man McBush does something wrong he just says it is okay because he was a POW. lol.

by Spanky on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:25:54 PM EST

Again, say that - - (none / 0)

dont be flippant. Know your audience.
And doddering old fool senile John won Saturday night. Not good.
What the hell are Obama's people getting paid for?

by kosnomore on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:28:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

by Spanky on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:36:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Only because he cheated and got the answers beforehand. And old man McBush is a doddering old man.

by zerosumgame on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you can tell most of the folks answering have never spoken in public and the rest are just in denial

by venician on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:48:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And once again zero shows up in another one of kos chicken little diaries. These two take gold and silver in the deadender Olympics.

by zerosumgame on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:42:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

and once again the wannabe cabal of blind worshipers sends in one of it's lamest to try to insult someone who actually pays attention.

He did know his audience. (2.00 / 2)

"Above my paygrade" is obviously saying that God is the one who makes these distinctions. Most thoughtful religious folk that I've talked to could see that.

It's only a gaffe if you are desperate for a story and aren't coming at it from a position of faith.

Sadly the media, and apparently you, fall into that category.

The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:07:04 PM EST

what do you want? (none / 0)

Do you want a messiah or a president? Do you want him presumptious or humble? He was saying it was a question he wasn't in position to answer. Would you have rather he made some bullshit up to pander to the religious right like McCain? If you don't like him then don't vote for him, but stop griping about how he doesn't have the answer to the mysteries of life.

"They are ever so much nicer at Tiffany's!"

by epiphany on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 11:08:37 PM EST

It was a forum on morals/ethics/religion (none / 0)

half way thru the event is a little late to decide you dont want to mix religion and politics! And I dont want him to state the secret of life - - I just wanted him to give an intelligent answer to a question we all know he'd be asked. Instead, he gave a snarky answer.